From James Baker

Tuesday, 21 October 2014

Though the Greens track record is pretty poor. Brighton Council which they run the recycling rate has fallen since they got control - See this page

Compare that to Calderdale Council which has a recycling rate of about 61% largely due to the efforts of Janet Battye, the local Lib Dems and in fairness the Labour party who we were in coalition with at the same time.

From Charles Gate

Wednesday, 22 October 2014

Always best to read the small print - "Service disruption from summer 2013 to early 2014 had a significant impact on how much recycling we collected. However, recycling rates across the country as a whole also appear to be levelling off, possibly as a result of less paper publications such as newspapers and magazines, changes in the manufacturing industry and the global economic crisis and UK recession."

Still looking forward to Calderdale Council recycling tetrapaks, more plastics and small electrical goods from the kerbside.

Could be with the destruction of recycling site at Eastwood, Calderdale rates may fall as well. But we won't blame the Council for that one

From James Baker

Sunday, 26 October 2014

Charles you are right sometimes external factors impact on things when you are running a Council. It's a tough job, that's the nature of it. Like now on Calderdale with the current parking crisis caused by a drafting error by a member of staff.

In the case of Brighton though it was the Green Council's pay cut which triggered the industrial dispute and strike that helped contribute to plummeting recycling rates. Caroline Lucas the Green MP said she would support the strike action! Leaving Kitcat trying to defend the Council's actions.

Speaking as an environmentalist I think it's a shame they have failed to improve recycling rates, it's obviously something they had wanted to but just didn't have the experience to achieve it.

In fairness I suspect Labour stirred things with the industrial dispute and Unions too but still for the only Green Council to have overseen a fall in recycling rates is pretty bad.

From Jonathan Timbers

Sunday, 26 October 2014

It is true that all reformist parties tend to disappoint their supporters. This is not just because of corporate influence, however. So, it is misleading to blame their failures solely on corruption, as Ralph explicitly does.

Often the failure to deliver reform is because political parties are responding to the wider conservatism of voters and because they have to confront the limitations of what government can do. More fundamentally, governments do not control the main driver in society, i.e. money, capital, finance (whatever you wish to call it). So ultimately they must do what capital demands, or expose voters and their families to the consequences.

Unfortunately, the political alternative to capitalism has a much worse record (in general) than capitalism itself. So, reformist parties are trapped by the dominant (but clearly failing) neo-liberal ideology. This is the underlying dilemma which, in my view, has lead to massive political disillusionment with politics throughout Europe.

The only reason the Greens in GB may appear, in Ralph's words, to be 'new' and 'fresh' and 'young' - in fact, all the qualities of a Botticelli virgin - is because they have rarely had to exercise elected authority in this jurisdiction.

Unfortunately, when they have, I believe they often ended up upsetting the trade unions.

Furthermore, a quick survey of Green parties in Europe indicates that they are not all intrinsically spring-like and virginal. Some contain highly conservative elements, others are neo-liberal in orientation.

In this country, the Green Party is currently dominated by a radical reformist left. In the unlikely eventuality of it achieving power (presumably in coalition with, to extend Ralph's metaphor, one of the grown up main parties) it would simply face the same challenges that other reformists have faced in the past, and be forced to compromise. Over time, it would be forced to evolve, and could end up being a party of the far left, centre (or perhaps potentially even far) right or anything inbetween.

From Rob Blake

Tuesday, 28 October 2014

I think it's true to say that the Green Party would be forced to compromise should they ever gain power.

I think that it's also true to say that we are entering into a new and completey unprecedented situation where many and varied threats are lining up to form a very real danger to the long term survival of life on Earth, including us humans.

I'm hopeful that this existential threat will motivate more and more people to re-engage with politics and I think it is possible that the Greens may be the party who benefits most if this happens.

After all, it is pointless to argue about taxation or the NHS if the planet itself can no longer support life. The Greens have the tide with them and if they can keep to their agenda they could do well.

From Anthony Rae

Thursday, 30 October 2014

Can I just in the interests of accuracy comment on or correct something in Cllr Baker's first post: "Compare that to Calderdale Council which has a recycling rate of about 61% largely due to the efforts of Janet Battye, the local Lib Dems and in fairness the Labour party who we were in coalition with at the same time."

I've written elsewhere (as coordinator, Calderdale FOE and Chair, Calderdale Sustainability Forum) as to who should get the credit for Calderdale's great recycling success: Recycling: Who's the wrecker on the JCB? - 4th paragraph.

James mentions LibDem and Labour contributions but the lead councillor when the Council's all important waste strategy was being being developed in the 2nd half of the 2000s was Graham Reason - Conservative (no longer on the Council). He was constantly supportive of recycling which was hugely helpful.

Oh, and I do mention in the article the role that FOE and CSF played in the process.

Most of the comments in the thread take one or other party political positions, but FOE on the other hand will work with (almost) all parties that promote environmental protection and improvement. And I know it's a source of a little irritation to the Green Party - since they are mentioned - that we don't automatically support their stances but that's just another consequence of this different approach.

From James Baker

Tuesday, 4 November 2014

Anthony, you are right to point out that lots of other people than just those running the Council at the time contributed to the recycling (including every resident who actually does it!).

But you omit to mention that in 2011 the Labour & Liberal Democrat coalition running Calderdale Council improved recycling by introducing weekly collections of recyclables. Janet has consistently championed recycling which Is why I feel she deserves credit on this issue (then I am bias!).

Jonathan makes a thoughtful point about the realities of governing. It's true that you often don't get to do everything you would want to, the coalition government is one example of how in reality you have to make compromises you don't want to as a small party trying to get polices enacted.

Also no level of government has total control over society (thank god). Ultimately recycling is everyone's responsibility!

The Greens mean well with their environmentalism, and I get on well with many Green party members. What I don't agree with them on is the current ultra left politics that dominate the party. It's that far left politics that resulted in them being unable to handle an industrial dispute with the GMB Union.

The party split when they had to make difficult choices about cuts in services (probably aggravated by the Labour party in Brighton) this resulted in a complete breakdown of industrial relations, and the knock on affect was that Brighton Council's recycling rate fell.

It's fine having lot's of radical ideas that work well in opposition but it's a lot more difficult putting them into practice when you are trying to change behaviors, vested corporate and media interests, attitudes and governmental bureaucracies!

From Eleanor Land

Tuesday, 4 November 2014

Only a Lib Dem would describe the Greens as far left. At least the Greens are not hypocrites. Their saving grace for me is that they haven't suggested idiotic policies like the Bedroom Tax, or enabled the most far right government in this country's history trample all over the poor and vulnerable. The Lib Dems have more than recycling to sort out to avoid a trouncing next May.

From Allen Keep

Tuesday, 4 November 2014

It's fine having lot's of radical ideas that work well in opposition but it's a lot more difficult putting them into practice when you are trying to change behaviors, vested corporate and media interests, attitudes and governmental bureaucracies!

True enough Cllr Baker - but how then do you explain your enthusiastic support for the Bedroom Tax?

From Paul Clarke

Wednesday, 5 November 2014

I did think we'd got past old fashioned 'reds under the beds' hysteria so inaccurately describing the Greens as 'ultra left' seems almost quaint.

There is a typical inconsistency in Mr Baker's argument as on one hand he accuses the Greens of being ultra left and yet in Brighton they were trying to take up to four grand off poorly paid refuse workers.

If they were so left wing surely they would have just created a workers soviet and given the refuse workers what they wanted.

The only consistency in Mr Baker's posts is his hatred of Labour which tends to lead to him making sweeping statements with no evidence.

So for instance if I wanted to evidence the damaging impact of their disastrous coalition with the Tories I could point to the fact the Lib Dems lost 16 out of 17 seats in May seeing their vote collapse in former strongholds like Calder and Luddendenfoot.

In contrast Mr Baker refers to the Greens in Brighton in this way: 'The party split when they had to make difficult choices about cuts in services (probably aggravated by the Labour party in Brighton). So my challenge to him is to provide evidence to back this claim up as Labour either aggravated the situation or they didn't. Saying probably is a weak argument.

In an earlier post he was at it again saying: 'In fairness I suspect Labour stirred things with the industrial dispute and Unions too but still for the only Green Council to have overseen a fall in recycling rates is pretty bad.

Again he need to evidence that statement as Labour either stirred things up or they didn't. Suspicions are not enough.

I would suggest Mr Baker contact Lib Dem councillors in Brighton but like so many local authorities these days they have no councillors there. Not one.

From Anthony Rae

Thursday, 6 November 2014

Another factual correction for Councillor Baker. He says: '[AR] omits to mention that in 2011 the Labour & Liberal Democrat coalition running Calderdale Council improved recycling by introducing weekly collections of recyclables.'

Yes it's true that in December 2011 the new recycling service was tweaked so that all recycling streams were collected every week rather than different recycling streams on alternate weeks. But this was completely dependent on the much larger reorganisation of recycling services that occurred in April 2009. Let's remember that James' original claim was that 'Calderdale … has a recycling rate of about 61% largely due to the efforts of Janet Battye, the local Lib Dems and in fairness the Labour party who we were in coalition with at the same time.' That major reorganisation took years before 2009 to organise including the letting of a contract under EU procurement rules, which pushes the changes back to 'the second half of the 2000s' as I said.

Now whilst I don't have records of 'which was the controlling party/ies in Calderdale in which years', I do know that Cllr Reason (Cons) was the lead councillor during the major changes because I was involved in some of the discussions. That doesn't take away from the contribution of the other parties to these positive changes - because the support for recycling improvements was largely cross-party - but we always need to present the historical record accurately.

From Graham Barker

Thursday, 6 November 2014

No mention by anyone of Kerbside, who did brilliant pioneering work at a time when Calderdale was largely indifferent to recycling. Their reward was a kick in the teeth from Calderdale and Sita that put them out of business. In the scramble for credit, they deserve more than most.

From Ralph Nimmann

Wednesday, 19 November 2014

Thanks for participating in this Forum. Here's my response:

To clarify: this post was meant as a response to another Forum thread "General Election 2015" - I gave it the new headline: "The Future is Green", which caused a new thread.

Referring to Brighton: that's far away from Calderdale. Please stay either local(ish) like Kirklees, or refer to Caroline Lucas in Westminster (voted MP of the year). Any complaints?

The Green Party being fresh and new: why not give them a chance? In my opinion our political system and the top politicians are in desperate need of renewal (or removal); we do need an unspoiled alternative.

The Green Party being "far left"? I'd say: the Green party is not far left, but on the front. Also consider that Labour isn't any more what and where they used to be.

Who tries to stop the freedom and democracy undermining TTIP?
Who fights against the fracking rape of the land we live on?
Who is clearly pro renewable energies and against nuclear power?
Scrapping Trident, Wealth Tax on the top 1%, Voting Reform, renationalising the railways, keeping the NHS public, banking and monetary reform and many more points are part of the Green Party's programme.

If we want to have a future, is needs to be green.

From Jonathan Timbers

Sunday, 23 November 2014

"Referring to Brighton: that's far away from Calderdale. Please stay either local(ish) like Kirklees, or refer to Caroline Lucas in Westminster (voted MP of the year). Any complaints?"

Ralph's invitation is irresistible. Not only does he reduce the scope of permitted discussion to examples he approves of, ruling out the Irish Greens who were recently in a right-wing coalition government, or the German Greens who voted for the war in Afghanistan, but he seems oblivious to the Leeds Greens, who were in coalition with the Tories on the council from 2004-6. Surely they are sufficiently close to Calderdale to count? Or maybe we should confine the discussion to Greens who live in Mytholm? I'm sure they are purer than pure.

From Alan McDonald

Saturday, 29 November 2014

I've been a Green for nearly 20 years and am happy to discuss any kind of Green. I'm sure Ralph is too, he was making a plea - in a language that isn't his first - to focus on either the local, or on the notable achievements of Caroline Lucas as MP.

There is a back-handed compliment in Jonathan Timbers' reference to the Irish and Germans. The local Greens are part of an international movement committed to sustainability and economic security for all, with a substantial minority voice in Europe.

And yes, when they've engaged with power they've sometimes got their fingers burnt. As for instance in 2001 when some German Greens, not all, voted for the Afghan war – against the strong opposition, stated forcibly at the time, of the Greens of England and Wales.

But there are loads of positive Green achievements too. For every mistaken coalition deal like the short-lived one in Leeds, there are places like Kirklees, where a small number of Green councillors, over a period of a decade when the authority has often had no overall control, have succeeded measure by measure in making the authority a national leader in the sustainable renewal of housing.

So, yes, power has its perils and demands its compromises. Isn't the key question, though, who has the right principles and policies and the will to achieve them? That's why I'm Green.